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Hanging Out
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Dartplayer.net Forum Index >> Hanging Out >> Advanced '01 Theory
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Author Advanced '01 Theory
ECM




Joined on: 06/2002
Post: 187
Toronto, Ontario
Posted: 2002-09-21 on 09:41   
When playing double-out '01, I've seen people go for the bull -- inner or outer -- to start 57, 61, 63, 65, 66, 82, 84, 90, 91-95, 125, 132 & 135.

Do you go bull on some or all of these numbers? If so, when.

Personally, I don't like going for the 25 to set up a double, although I have done it. 66 is a non-starter: there's no percentage in it. 82 with one dart or three is always bull, with two if my opponent doesn't have an out yet. 84 I haven't decided yet. Going for the bull on 90 is a last dart option that I don't always use. I go bull on 91-95 if my opponent is 130 or under. I still prefer T15 on 125, but go bull on 135 if my opponent has any out. I always go bull on 132; if my opponent has an out, I'll try 50/42/40, if not I'll try the 50/50/32.

Any thoughts?

_________________
Any out is infinitely better than no out.

[ Edited by ECM On Date 09/2002 ]


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thetemp




Joined on: 05/2002
Post: 59
New Jersey
Posted: 2002-09-21 on 21:52   
Hey ECM, I agree that the bull has it's place in 01, but I'm very reluctant to use it. I don't remember ever shooting for a double bull with the first dart (except 125 and when way ahead 82). Heck, with 50 left, if I have two darts left I shoot a fat eighteen.

On an 82 I would rather shoot a trip 20, double 11. If I hit the single 11 by accident, I'll at least leave myself with a double 4 (after shooting a 3) for the next turn. I would only go bull on 82 if my opponent was over 150. I have no problem what so ever hitting bulls, I just don't care what out I have. If the game allows me to dictate the pace I'll give myself double 16. That being said any partner I have ever played with knows I would rather be left with a double 1 then have them try to work the dart in (except with the first dart on double one). Go for it. I would rather lose because I could not hit a double one then to know that I had a shot at the out and tip toed around it and lost.

On an 84 a trip 20 leaves you with a 24 and a 24 breaks down 3 times (12,6,3), why avoid it.

I'm, confused why you would use a bull shot on any of these.
91 = 50 does not leave an out trip 17 does double 20
92 = you have to shoot trip 20 here (32)
93 = trip 19 leaves you with 36 left and it breaks down twice before you waste a dart at the 1 to leave double 4.
94 = trip 18 leaves double 20
95 = with 3 darts trip 15, 18 leaves double 16, or triple 19 leaves 38 which if you miss leaves you with a fat 3 shot to leave double 8.

132 = why not shoot trip 20 double twenty double 16. if you can at least hit the ton you have a 32 for your next round.
or a trip 20 trip 20 double 6.

135 = trip 20, trip 17 leaves you a double 12. I understand why the bull shot is popular here (50,45,40) (25,60,50) that being said 20 & 17 are triples which I am use to hitting.

The only # I start with a bull shot is 125 and thats because I love hitting trip 20's and I don't need a double bull only a single.

I guess that is the great appeals of dart, there are so many different ways to solve the same situations.

[ Edited by thetemp On Date 09/2002 ]

[ Edited by thetemp On Date 09/2002 ]


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ECM




Joined on: 06/2002
Post: 187
Toronto, Ontario
Posted: 2002-09-22 on 10:26   
thetemp,

I should have explained the 91-95 range, but it’s the same thinking that applies to all of these numbers from 82 up, except for 90.

On each of these numbers, I’m aiming at the 50, but not counting on hitting it. If the 50 were the only worthwhile target in the middle of the board, I wouldn’t go there on 82. T14 D20 is a higher percentage shot with two darts, but the single 14 leaves 68, and you have no options at that point: you must go 54/14, or 18/50. The advantage of the bull option on the first dart is that the 25 leaves 57, which is an easy 17/40. Same on 84: 20 leaves 42/22 or 14/50; 25 leaves 19/40.

The 91-95 range works the same way. In each case the 50 leaves an easy two-dart out:
91 = 50/9/32 or the wedge shot 50/17/24 or 50/3/38
92 = wedge shot 50/10/32 or 50/6/36
93 = 50/11/32 or the wedge shot 50/3/40 or 50/19/24
94 = 50/12/32 or the wedge shot 50/8/36 or 50/16/28
95 = 50 13/32 or the wedge shot 50/19/26 or 50/7/38

but in each case the 25 gets you to 70 or under:
91 = 25/48/18 or 25/16/50
92 = 25/51/16 or 25/17/50
93 = 25/54/14 or 25/18/50
94 = 25/57/12 or 25/19/50
95 = 25/60/10 or 25/20/50

In this range, going bull on the first dart is the only way to get to a double by hitting two singles. The disadvantage is that it turns a potential two-dart out into a three-dart out. Try them is practice, though; they may surprise you.

132 works the same way as 135: 50/42/40 or 25/57/50.

You wrote that you go bull on 125 because you don’t need the double, just the single. That’s the point of all of these: for each of these numbers, the 25 does you more good than any other single.


_________________
Any out is infinitely better than no out.

[ Edited by ECM On Date 12/2002 ]


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thetemp




Joined on: 05/2002
Post: 59
New Jersey
Posted: 2002-09-23 on 10:34   
Hey ECM, I understand the use of the bull in conjunction to scores 91-95. But it is something I would never use in a game situation.

My basic problem is with the theory behind the strategy. If I hit the double bull great, but I still donít have an out. I just hit the smallest point on the board and I donít have an out! While I can shoot at a much larger trip and leave myself two darts at the out.

Now assuming that you donít hit the double bull and you hit the single bull, you still have to hit a single just to have a crack at the double bull out. I like hitting bulls but the last thing I want to try to do is hit a double bull to win unless I am behind against a great shooter. Iíve done it before, but I would rather hit a trip and leave a larger double to win.

I agree that any out is better then no out, but if you miss the double bull and fall into the single bull (hopefully, depending on your level). You now have 25 left, so you have to waste a dart to get to 24 or 16.

I suppose I am trip-minded. I never shoot the fat of a number in practice except at the end of a 01 game.


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Geo26




Joined on: 06/2001
Post: 4
West Point, New York US
Posted: 2002-11-22 on 08:19   
Depending on the game situation, I may go for the outer bull on:
57 (If, for whatever reason, D20 is NOT an option),
61 ("Most Likely" -- I'm rather fond of D18), or
65 (Unless I gett a GOOD feeling about the T11)


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thetemp




Joined on: 05/2002
Post: 59
New Jersey
Posted: 2002-11-23 on 19:21   
Quote:

On 2002-11-22 08:19, Geo26 wrote:
Depending on the game situation, I may go for the outer bull on:
57 (If, for whatever reason, D20 is NOT an option),
61 (\"Most Likely\" -- I'm rather fond of D18), or
65 (Unless I gett a GOOD feeling about the T11)



I understand the theory behind 57 but if you hit the mark you leave yourself with 7. Yuck, why not just hit the 17 and leave yourself with d20 or 19, d18.

61 - how can you not shoot trip 15 here. I love hitting trip 15, d8. that's one of the reasons 61 is one of my favorite numbers to take out.

Now 65 I cannot disagree with you on. I would shoot the trip 11, but I think if you like the bull then this is a great number to use it on. If you hit, great. If you miss you most likely only have 1 single dart to leave your 3rd dart at the out. If you hit the double bull, then you still only need a single 3 to leave d6 or a single 7 to leave d4. null


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DaKat




Joined on: 12/2002
Post: 16
Posted: 2002-12-02 on 11:53   
I very rarely shoot at the cork, with the exception being 95, 98, or 99.

95 & 98 can be taken out in two darts. However, if the required treble is hit on the first dart it adds a good deal of pressure on the out shot due to the fact you're sitting on an odd number out. Missing the double out, hitting the single and your left with a dart in your hand......with no out-shot and your opponet gets 3 more.

95 = 50, S13, D16
95 = 25, T18, D8

98 = 50, S16, D16
98 = 25, T19, D8

99 = 50, S17, D16
99 = 25, T14, D16

90 = T18, D18
91 = T17, D20
92 = T20, D16
93 = T19, D18
94 = T18, D20
*95 = T19, D19
96 = T20, D18
97 = T19, D20
*98 = T20, D19
**99 = (Takes Three Darts reguardless. Best to avoid landing on 99 the round before.)

I would never think about shooting at the cork with 89 or less on the first. Possible the second depending on what I'm left with and what 50 or 25 will leave me with for an out shot. My overall goal is to land on 40, 36, 32, 16, or 8 every time for obvious reasons.



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ECM




Joined on: 06/2002
Post: 187
Toronto, Ontario
Posted: 2002-12-02 on 21:41   
DaKat,

Why go bull on 95 if you aren't leaving the bull as an emergency exit? Why go bull on 98 at all? If you refuse to go for the D19 on the second dart, go for the 6/10 wedge: 6 leaves 32, 10 leaves 28. I won't go for an odd double either if my opponent doesn't have an out. If my opponent does have an out, I'd rather have two chances to hit an odd double than one chance at an even double, and I'd rather have one chance to hit the double bull than no chance to hit any double.

Eric Bristow did colour commentary at the the Skol World Championship this year, and I listened online to much of the competition. At one point Rod Harrington needed 90, and went at it the smart way. Bristow commented on that, and on his own inability to wean his pub league teammates off the T18/D18 approach.

For the record, 90 is an ugly out, and anything smaller is much better.

90 = T20/D15
90 = 20/T20/D5
90 = 20/20/DB

By the way, I don't expect to convince anyone on 90. If his teammates won't listen to Bristow, why should anyone listen to me. Try it, though.

_________________
Any out is infinitely better than no out.

[ Edited by ECM On Date 12/2002 ]


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DaKat




Joined on: 12/2002
Post: 16
Posted: 2002-12-03 on 06:41   
Scenerio 1 (90 = 20/20/DB ) If you miss the T20 on your first and second dart (hitting the single block both times) you leave yourself a tough outshot at the DB.

Scenerio 2 (90 = 20/T20/D5 ) If you miss the T20 on your first (hitting the single block), you need to hit two consective darts to win. At this point (70 left with 2 darts in hand), can be taken out a couple of ways but requires two percision shots.

Scenerio 3 (90 = T20/D15) If you hit the T20 on your first and miss the D15 for the win on your second (hitting the single block), you are left with 15 and one dart. Why would you want to even attempt to put yourself in that kind of a position, no matter what your opponent is sitting with?

Shooting T18 with the first dart leaves room for error on the second dart (out shot at 36) with a possibility of second out shot with the third dart at D9, D16, or D17. Of course hitting high on the S1 would be catostrophic on the second dart in this scenerio, leaving you in the same position as scenerio number two....sitting at 35 with 1 dart in hard.

It all comes down to what numbers you feel most comfortable shooting at, especially doubles which are ultimately the shots that make you famous. True, the D15 has the same surface area as the D16 or any double bed for that matter. However, I happen to spend much more practice time at the even number doubles (20, 18, 16, & than I do at any others, knowing if I miss my out shot on my second dart, I leave myself with the a possible 2nd out shot on my 3rd dart.


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ECM




Joined on: 06/2002
Post: 187
Toronto, Ontario
Posted: 2002-12-03 on 11:18   
Okay, lets look at T18/D18.

If you miss the T18 on the first dart, but hit the S18, you have 72 left. Now you have options: T20/D6, T16/D12, T12/D18. Some would favour T18/D9 or D18/D18. If you also miss with the second dart, but hit a single, 20 leaves D26, 16 leaves D28, 12 leaves D30, 18 leaves D27. One small problem: there is no D26, D27, D28 or D30. There is a D25.

Since I mentioned Bristow above, I might as well again. This time, he didn't do it the smart way.

1983, the final of the Embassy Cup, Kieth Dellar led Bristow 2-1 in the deciding set. Dellar was sitting on 138, Bristow on 121.

Bristow tried for the T17 and caught a single, leaving 104. He threw for the T18 and nailed it, leaving 50. Then he played it safe, and threw a fat 18 to leave 32.

Deller stepped up to the oche and threw T20/T18/D12: game, set, match -- and World Championship -- over.

When you try for T18/D18 with three darts, you're counting on having four darts to win the game, because it takes three singles to get to any double. I can't afford to do that. A couple of weeks ago a teammate of mine checked out a 160 on me warming up before the game, then finished a 12 darter (501) on a 161 during the league game. When you're playing people like that, you have to be insane not to go T20/D15.

_________________
Any out is infinitely better than no out.


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